people like eating bacon and eating sausage. it's a business that's going to be around forever. >> full circle. got back to processed meat. guys, thank you very, very much. we continue on fox. access to healthcare.gov has been a misably frustrating experience for way too many americans. >> a lot of people would say that's a a understatement. problems still plaguing the obama website but health care and the internet are working together in the private sector. these doctors posting their prices on personal websites for health services. patients say it works great. so is this proof the private sector does a heck of a lot better job than the government does? hi, everybody. welcome. let's go in focus with john, rich, elizabeth mcdonald, mike, rick, and sabrina schaeffer. so, john, government can't do

the health care on the internet but the private sector obviously can. >> of course it can. capitalism in the profit mode are ability turning scarcity into abundance. they're about turning a million dollar computer in the '70s into something that costs a couple hundred dollars today. health care is expensive and scarce today precisely because the government has naively removed the profit motor from the equation. president obama wants to make it universal and in trying to make it universal he's going to make it very hard for the average person to get. >> so, rick, this just proves the fact that the private sector could do the internet, that when the government gets into something it gums up the works. >> well, there's two questions here. obviously the internet has not gone as planned so far. i think it will be fixed by the end of november but we'll see. the real question here, which is can the private markets handle the pricing? look, it's really nice. if you need to go get an examination or a physical, whatever, yeah, you can probably take cash at a lower rate through that internet advertising by the doctor.

but that's not where the real costs are in the health care system. the real costses are in expensive treatments like chemotherapy, for cancer, heart disease, heart surgery. i got to tell you something. you can cut the price in half and americans could not pay for that. >> but look at these doctors that we're talking about. we're not just talking about general check-ups. these are surgeons on the internet. knee surgery. i had a knee surgery myself, costs tens of thousands of dollars. they're now advertising on the internet. it's not just the simple stuff. >> it's not -- it isn't just the simple stuff. i hear about the cancer treatment. but the thing is the exchanges were always so great, why not let them stand against the existing plans in the marketplace? why do they have to go so far to criminalize the existing plans? now we're seeing tens of millions of people losing potentially their employer provided plans and, you know, the small business plans and individual plans. people -- the market was showing you how to do health care before obama care. it was providing cheap coverage

for many people across the country and yet i got to tell you something, there's no such thing as a free lunch. right now those surgeons, david, that you're talking about, they're doing that because essentially the hospitals are saying, you know what, we don't want to deal with health reform. we don't want to get paid by health reform. >> mike, while these private doctors are doing great work on the internet, think of this. what the health care exchanges are doing. they have to register 39,000 people a day in order to reach their deadline, their march 1st deadline of 7 million. 39,000 a day. if they can't handal couple hundred a day at most, how can they handle 39,000 a day? >> david, my beef with this whole obama care versus the private sector has nothing to do with the computer glitches. it has to do with the fact that when you look at procedures that are handled by the private sector because they're not covered by insurance like lasik eye surgery, dental implants, the quality of the procedures

have improved dramatically over the last two decades and the costs have fallen dramatically because they're not incumbered by the regular laces in free insurance. >> the mess in the system p obama care is they may sour the public on anything on the internet, even things working in the private sector. >> david, i think that public is smarter than this. there are two elements that you need for a real health care revolution. one is to bring in all the entrepreneurs to satisfy this growing demand for better and cheaper health care. the second thing you need is price trans carnes si. as oz.out when you get that you get lasiks dropping tenfold over ten years. you can get your own gene sequenced anywhere from $100 to $2,000 today. we're on the cusp of an extraordinary revolution. if we only had price transparency and entrepreneurs coming in, i think that even expensive oncology treatments, to rick unger's point, would

drop a lot. >> sabrina, it's just the opposite in the public sector. the higher the prices become, right? >> right. and look, the government has been involved increasingly, both republicans and democrats, for over four decades with the health care system which is why we haven't been able to see some of the market proposals actually take place. but the fact is if you move this to the private sector, increase in choices and decrease in cost. tangible things can be done. move to a system where we encourage health savings accounts where question encourage the deregulation of the insurance market, encourage health status insurance. these are real things. we have to get rid of that tax subsidy for employer provided insurance. there's substantive changes that could have been made that would have moved things to the private sector in a productive way. >> john, just an overall economic point. the point is in the private sector there's accountability. if you screw up somebody can go elsewhere. but if the government eventually takes control of the entire health care market, 1/6 of our

economy, we will have nowhere else to go. >> we have the government fails, they'll just get more money to fail even more. and you know, getting back to rick's point about, he's talking about catastrophic needs for health care. >> exactly. >> that's what the market can fix very easily in terms of cancer and heart disease. we could buy catastrophic insurance very easily and very inexpensive precisely because it's far more rare. you've got to let the markets in. what rick is doing and it's very naive is going to remove that market force from -- and it's going to make it very more expensive and very more difficult for people to get it when they most need it. >> rick? >> let me tell you what's naive, john. i can respond to each one of your arguments if i had the time by our friend david here told us about his knee surgery and how you can go about shopping for them online. you tell me, david, look me in the camera there and tell me you would have picked your knee surgeon based on price. you wouldn't have. you would not have priced. you would have shopped for the best. >> i'll look you right in the

eye and tell you that's not true. we have several great hospitals here in new york that offer similar services, all of which are very, very high quality and i choose based on the cheapest one with that high quality. that's the great thing -- it's exactly what i did. >> that is what you do. unless you're not inclined to have dr. obama prescribe you a little pill. >> because there are no choices. the problem is with -- hold up. when the government takes over the whole system and has a monopoly, eventually you won't have the choices. >> that's right. by the way, the government already is involved in half op the health care markets through medicare and medicaid. the thing is what you're talking about, too, dade is choice. what we have now is government mandated insurance plans. the insurers were sticking it to consumers. now you have insurer rs sticking it to hospitals and doctors who don't want to deal with health reform and doing it themselves. >> the fact is that, david, you may have chosen a more expensive doctor. i have a doctor that doesn't take insurance at all be i go to her because i think she provides

the best care for myself and my family. she responds quickly to e-mails, on-demand appointments. sometimes that's a value to the consumer just as much as lower price. >> you have people traveling to india because their services are so much cheaper. >> that's true. but if you look at the real numbers on medical tourism, i'm a supporter of it, you will finds there's not many people who travel. >> rick may still be supportive but even the liberal "new yorker" has come out with a magazine cover that is chastising the president and sebelius and all the rest of them for what has been happening with the obama care rollout. books will be written about this, folks. >> can i be one of them? >> medical tourism to india. some folks have been warning obama care is just a step towards the government taking complete control of health care in america but is the botched rollout changing that? up next right here, first, the food stamp cuts and now the fear, but the forbes flip side says, fear not.

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live from america's news headquarters, i'm padity ann browne. new information on the alleged gunman at l.a.x. investigators say the suspect paul ciancia had a note with him spewing his hatred of the tsa. he also may have sent a suicidal note or text to his family before opening fire. one tsa agent was killed and several others injured including the alleged gunman during yesterday's shooting. a live look now at l.a.x. as terminal three where the shooting took place is now p partially reopened following yesterday's incident. passengers are now able to enter the ticketing area but the gate area remains closed this morning. outbound flights were canceled for hours as yesterday's events unfolded. that impacted hundreds of

flights and altered plans for nearly 100,000 people. i'm patty ann browne. now back to "forbes on fox" and for more, logon to foxnews.com. the loss of that will not just mean empty tables for thanksgiving for millions. it will mean, as well, a weaker economy. >> some lawmakers like john conyers warning food stamp cuts will mean empty dinner tables for many americans. $5 billion in extra spending used as a so-called stimulus boost for the program just ended, but democrats want to put it back in. but on the flip side, we say cut more. explain, rich. >> well, look, this is tragic. we have 47 million americans on food stamps. i sympathize with the liberals who worry about the cuts because we're going to take 13% away from the amount of money that people will have for food stamps if problem is is that we've got

the distinguish between the truly poor and needy and the people who are gaming the system. now, you can't tell me that people aren't gaming the system when you have a doubling of food stamps since obama's been president. if you're 25 to 55, adult, you're able bodied, you should not get food stamps. >> rick, shouldn't we at least cut those folks out? >> i got to tell you, i'm stunned by what rick said. i was all prepared to disagree with him but he just said the exact correct thing. >> okay, good. >> we focus on cutting. stop focusing on cutting. you know what cutting gets you? 900,000 military veterans are going to be in a tougher position now because of the cuts that took place yesterday. is that really what we want to do? take food off the table of people who risk their lives for us? i don't think anybody wants to do that. fix it. don't cut it. >> morgan, what do you think? >> i think that's really what's already on the table. talking about cuts that are died to reform. i think that's really the big point that needs to be made there. i also would say that the food

stamp situation is a much larger, longer trend line than just the downturn which is usually the big argument. i'll give you a number right now. 47 million americans on food stamps. that's 15 million more americans than during 2009 in the height of the recession. if you look at it on longer -- >> hold on a second 15 million more on food stamps since we supposedly got out of the recession. >> yes. >> it's not supposed to work that way. >> if you look at spending since 2000, if you look at spending since george bush took presidency, we've actually, that's where we started to see the ballooning happening in food stamps. we saw a loosening on regulations for people who could sign up under president bush and then we've seen that just get larger and larger under president obama. this is a much larger issue and we have to pull back on some of those qualifications regulations. >> so bill, should we pull back? >> listen, i think rich has the notion that the administration's sin is just the increase in the number of recipients. i think there's a much bigger

sin which is the weakening of the work requirement. do not cut benefits. there are genuinely needy pa families. an able bodied adult, work 27 hour as month to earn the benefits. really enforce that. find government jobs doing things like cleaning up parks for people who don't have other employment and make them earn their benefits. >> mike, should there be that work requirement there? >> i don't think, dade, the government should be in the food stamp business at all. primarily because it's tremendously inefficient. over ten cents of every dollar of the food stamp budget goes to paying bureaucrats. it doesn't work. look, the cost, when you adjust for inflation and population, since this was started in the '30s, has risen over 600%. >> wow. >> that's ridiculous. you're much better offhanding out block grants in local communities or states than you are running things through this great bureaucracy called the

federal government. >> rich, once again, this is an example that when you put it all through the federal government ringer it turns out distorted and twisted and wrong. >> yeah, there are too many different people with too many different competing agendas. it makes it unworkable. you see it in the health care rollout. you see it here. i agree with ohio's governor. it's a disaster for republicans to make war on the poor. i'm a republican. i don't want to make war on the poor. but i want to boot out the people who don't belong on this program. >> and, john, the nature of getting on the dole is very destructive, is it not? there's that aspect to it, as well. >> it is. and i say don't cut, just abolish it. the founding fathers were very wise people. they were libertarians. and they understood that the commercial government should have few and defined powers. we're talking about gaming the system and lots of fraud in it. that's precisely the result of the federal government trying to fight poverty from washington, d.c.

at best, this should be a local thing that government should fight. they can do a much better job. i say they do an even better job in the private sector through charity. the problem with the fraud is precisely because the federal government is involved. if you want to get rid of it, abolish the program. >> morgan, what about cutting out the federal side of this entirely, just focusing on private charities and local governments? >> i don't think that we should cut out the federal government entirely but it's not just the federal government contributing to this larger issue on snap spending. it's also the states that have loosened their guidelines for people who can qualify even more so than the federal government. part of the reason is because they get federal government incentives to do that. i think that's a big point to make as well. we need to see the regulations or reforms happen on both of those government levels. the other point i would make is we talk about people not being able to afford food for thanksgiving. the other issue is that the larger, the other government subsidies that are tied to the farm bill are part of the reason that food is as expensive as it

is. >> great point. >> you need to take a look at those as well. >> finally, rick, i want to get to this one point. demoralizing aspect of going on the dole. you've got to count that into your occasion at some point, don't you? >> you do. i think you'll find most americans don't like it. but john anointing our founders as libertarians, that was pretty interesting. we should pick up -- >> you don't think that argument can be made? i think it can be. >> pick up what bill baldwin said because i don't understand why we don't create a core for people who can work and do things in their community in exchange for their food stamps. i support that all the way. coming up, turn america into a 30-hour workweek and you'll turn america into a health year, happier country. a new plan from a group of economists, but would it work? we're going to debate that next. welcome back. how is everything?

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♪ how about working just 30 hours for the weekend? a group of economists say a shorter workweek would actually, quote, improve our well-being, our family life, friendships and our communities, end quote. but you say it's going to do just the opposite. >> i'm worried about giving incentive to companies to do more in the way of cutting pay and that would be bad. and you have shorter basically work hours but the same amount of labor costs going into the production of goods, meaning inflation, meaning higher costs of goods. listen, it could lead to more government meddling like a government guaranteed income

like in sweden. even though i like the fish, i don't want to be like sweden. >> people are saying we need to work harder not less. >> you can work harder in a smaller amount of time. that's the argument that henry ford made back when he scaled his factory down to a five-day workweek in the 1920s. but i actually really like this idea. i think it's worth investigation. you can make -- you can also make the argument that we've been moving more towards a 30-hour workweek model since the downturn and more towards a part-time economy in that sense. i think it's worth investigation. there's a lot of direct correlations between better health and shorter workweeks and a direct correlation between increased productivity and increased workweek. >> my better health would be not working at all. bill, what about a 30-hour workweek? >> banning the government from 30 hours? no. no mandate for time and a half. listen, a century ago it was probably the case of the cool employer made you work 60 hours a week and had to step in with the government to stop it all. you know what the problem is now? it's not 60-hour weeks.

it's not working too much. it's working too little. the problem is people can't get jobs and they can't get them because the government is regulated the workplace to death. >> so, sabrina, get rid of all the work laws, all of them. >> i can probably go for that. i think he's right, the government should stay out of this. as a theory, it's interesting. i think people are more productive when they have less time. i know that as a mom. i know -- i think i might disagree with e.mac on this one. it's beneficial to the people trying to break into the job market or stay in the job marth. i sat on the train from the new york to d.c., he said he's trying to keep more women in the workplace. number one problem, too long of hours. so i think this could be a good thing for women and young workers. >> you disagree with e.mac at your own risk. i warn you. >> i know. >> agree to disagree? >> i mostly agree with her. listen, i see the light. >> because she's here and she can hit you if you disagree with you. >> do it all the time. i get the lifestyle benefits and i can see how it can be a good

thick. my concern is, as liz suggested, it would come with less money. we're a consumer-based economy. this is something that could be damaging. it would have to happen over a very long-term. coming up, new signs you can't depend on social security. that's why informers say we need their stocks to help you retire in style. at od, whatever business you're in, that's the business we're in. with premium service like one of the best on-time delivery records and a low claims ratio, we do whatever it takes to make your business our business. od. helping the world keep promises.

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decent. >> if you can't quit buying sector funds, buy it cheaper. >> ben bernanke let's to put money, worse. >> morgan, good or bad for gold? >> same thing production decline. >> that's it for "forbes on fox." thanks for watching. have a great weekend. one month into obama care and one thing's clear, it ain't ready for prime time. but what's really up their sleeve? >> single payer. single payer system. >> single payer plan. >> single payer, that's part of the government run health care big brother style. is that what they've se cently wanted all along? we report, you decide. plus, we have been warning you about obama care for years but only now the mainstream media is catching on. asleep at the wheel or is liberal media slow walking the story. and then, it's the interview everyone is talking about. pointing the finger at president obama as more scanles erupt. "cashin'